Parugeon
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Re: Fix the massive imbalance between ftp and p2w

Tue Aug 15, 2017 4:59 am

Kirkis wrote:
Parugeon wrote:
Kirkis wrote:
Removing building rush and giving us more troop population slots would not benefit the developers one bit. There has to be sacrifice on both sides in order to reach a conclusion. The sacrifice on their side is a ton of revenue generated by players buying building rush. We lose the building rush but gain population. Even as a consumer, it seems a tad bit one-sided to me.


I dont feel it should be removed as that would impact negatively on new players to the server however if its use could be restricted in the starting periods of a new server giving everyone a fairer initial start it would go along way. E.g. first 7 days of server the only available speed ups are the 4x30min ones.

Removing the ability to purchase troops of a quality and lvl higher than they can build would also greatly help this. This would include ones found in purchased chests aswell

Giving players the ability to purchase units higher than they can train gives them a larger incentive to purchase the troops rather than troops of equal level. The same idea also applies to chests. Because chests have an aura on uncertainty that will drive players away from purchasing them, you need a satisfying enough reward to draw them in. Troops and ability cards are great options.

Now about the speedups.. the initial beginning of a server is the perfect time to capitalize on a player's drive to become the strongest; or strong in a certain amount of time. This is why starter packs are offered in many games (although I forgot if there was one of this particular game). Spending tends to occur most at the beginning because you see that the players around you are weak and begin to think things like, "wow, if I had a little boost I could dominate this server!" Well, too bad a lot of people think like this. Therefor, after blowing away all that dinero, you will feel an urge to spend more because you are losing your position as a top player. And as this carries on and on, hundreds and thousands of hours of speedups are bought while the developers laugh and bathe in champagne.

I hope this makes sense.. its a business, and they're doing quite a fine job.



I cant agree more on what you have said and I know perfectly well how these games work and that its a buisness. However this game is classed as Free To Play..... as it stands right now and more so after latest update it most certainly isnt. This game is pure pay to play for most servers. Even attempting to play free results in a most deplorable experience.

While p2w has always been around and will always be part of it, they have to have a very strict balance. While a wallet player my have an edge over someone playing free they should not have a god stick that they can effortlessly beat that player with constantly.

As it is right now it doesn't matter how skilled you are playing free, if your lucky enough to get some of the money doesnt matter wallet players that make it a point to crush everyone coming up in power then your going to be pushing shit up hill until you cant get up. So what then? To have a chance to actually play the game you need to put money in! And that right there is where the game is no longer free to play.

Unfortunately it is as you say though and they know how to get players to spend regardless of the negative it brings to the game. Right now they have the short term business plan where they will make every cent they can and pull the plug. If they wanted the game to be a long term success alot of the changes to benefit spenders would never have been implimented.

I hope im wrong but sad to say I dont think I am
 
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Krakatoa
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Re: Fix the massive imbalance between ftp and p2w

Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:35 am

Parugeon wrote:
Kirkis wrote:
Parugeon wrote:

I dont feel it should be removed as that would impact negatively on new players to the server however if its use could be restricted in the starting periods of a new server giving everyone a fairer initial start it would go along way. E.g. first 7 days of server the only available speed ups are the 4x30min ones.

Removing the ability to purchase troops of a quality and lvl higher than they can build would also greatly help this. This would include ones found in purchased chests aswell

Giving players the ability to purchase units higher than they can train gives them a larger incentive to purchase the troops rather than troops of equal level. The same idea also applies to chests. Because chests have an aura on uncertainty that will drive players away from purchasing them, you need a satisfying enough reward to draw them in. Troops and ability cards are great options.

Now about the speedups.. the initial beginning of a server is the perfect time to capitalize on a player's drive to become the strongest; or strong in a certain amount of time. This is why starter packs are offered in many games (although I forgot if there was one of this particular game). Spending tends to occur most at the beginning because you see that the players around you are weak and begin to think things like, "wow, if I had a little boost I could dominate this server!" Well, too bad a lot of people think like this. Therefor, after blowing away all that dinero, you will feel an urge to spend more because you are losing your position as a top player. And as this carries on and on, hundreds and thousands of hours of speedups are bought while the developers laugh and bathe in champagne.

I hope this makes sense.. its a business, and they're doing quite a fine job.



I cant agree more on what you have said and I know perfectly well how these games work and that its a buisness. However this game is classed as Free To Play..... as it stands right now and more so after latest update it most certainly isnt. This game is pure pay to play for most servers. Even attempting to play free results in a most deplorable experience.

While p2w has always been around and will always be part of it, they have to have a very strict balance. While a wallet player my have an edge over someone playing free they should not have a god stick that they can effortlessly beat that player with constantly.

As it is right now it doesn't matter how skilled you are playing free, if your lucky enough to get some of the money doesnt matter wallet players that make it a point to crush everyone coming up in power then your going to be pushing shit up hill until you cant get up. So what then? To have a chance to actually play the game you need to put money in! And that right there is where the game is no longer free to play.

Unfortunately it is as you say though and they know how to get players to spend regardless of the negative it brings to the game. Right now they have the short term business plan where they will make every cent they can and pull the plug. If they wanted the game to be a long term success alot of the changes to benefit spenders would never have been implimented.

I hope im wrong but sad to say I dont think I am


I could not agree with you more and also with Hisoka's posts. I'm all for free enterprise and I've tried to tell developers in the long run, they will get more money if they encourage F2P instead of P2W but like you said, either it fell on deaf ears or some people took offence to it (which doesn't bother me since I didn't mean any offence and it's not my problem how they interpret things). I can show you the screenshots where a group of us have asked what we thought were the "gurus" on how they got so good and so much power and they will blatantly tell you "oh I bought this, and I bought that" and "I wish they also sold this and that so I wouldn't have to waste my time waiting.". I see posts by the moderator about "strategy" but in reality, strategy is a very far second to spending in the game.

Now, all of the above would be okay if there was some system so there was at least some semblance of balance between the two groups, but exactly the opposite happens. If your heroes are stronger your troops are now stronger and who has the best heroes and the most heroes? (please don't dare tell me you got 10 or 12 heroes by being really good at strategy and how good a player you are). Interestingly, those same P2W players always seem to have the latest news and can tell you with more accuracy when things are going to happen than any post on this forum will. I've seen it happen, I've seen them prepare in advance of those changes, I've seen them say out loud "I will try to find out more...". Maybe they're speaking out of their you-know-what but when these people are right time and time again, it does make you wonder why they have information the rest of us don't.

I am not saying that P2W is bad, not at all. The developers have to make money too. However, like previously expressed, it is very different when you have an "open" world where there are thousands of players all in the same pot and not like the mechanics of Art of Conquest, where you have a very limited number of players enclosed in a box (server) where 2, 3, or just even one whale can make or break the gameplay. It would be amazingly simple to implement a "battle bonus" for those willing to go against stronger players and the same applies for stronger players wanting to take advantage of much weaker players (I've posted about this before, eg: for every 10K my power is lower than yours, the damage to your troops will increase by 10% and the resources you can get from me will be reduced by 10%. This is just an example with a number I grabbed from thin air). Now, if someone desperately wants to level my city because they don't like me despite knowing they will also suffer losses and they will never get more than half my resources, then by all means, let them, there's nothing I or anybody else can do to stop them. However, please don't sugarcoat the issue with talk of "strategy" when that has nothing to do with it in these situations

P.S.: I asked the other day some of the strongest players in our server why they didn't move to a server where they would have true competition (e.g.: sever 1). If they were able to move with their cities, their troops, everything, most of these players WOULD NOT move. The reasons provided were many but the one that stood out was: "oh, I'm just a casual player, I don't spend nearly as much as those guys do.".
:twisted: Krakatoa :twisted:

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Krakatoa
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Location: Canada

Re: Fix the massive imbalance between ftp and p2w

Thu Aug 17, 2017 3:47 am

Kirkis wrote:
Parugeon wrote:
Kirkis wrote:
Removing building rush and giving us more troop population slots would not benefit the developers one bit. There has to be sacrifice on both sides in order to reach a conclusion. The sacrifice on their side is a ton of revenue generated by players buying building rush. We lose the building rush but gain population. Even as a consumer, it seems a tad bit one-sided to me.


I dont feel it should be removed as that would impact negatively on new players to the server however if its use could be restricted in the starting periods of a new server giving everyone a fairer initial start it would go along way. E.g. first 7 days of server the only available speed ups are the 4x30min ones.

Removing the ability to purchase troops of a quality and lvl higher than they can build would also greatly help this. This would include ones found in purchased chests aswell

Giving players the ability to purchase units higher than they can train gives them a larger incentive to purchase the troops rather than troops of equal level. The same idea also applies to chests. Because chests have an aura on uncertainty that will drive players away from purchasing them, you need a satisfying enough reward to draw them in. Troops and ability cards are great options.

Now about the speedups.. the initial beginning of a server is the perfect time to capitalize on a player's drive to become the strongest; or strong in a certain amount of time. This is why starter packs are offered in many games (although I forgot if there was one of this particular game). Spending tends to occur most at the beginning because you see that the players around you are weak and begin to think things like, "wow, if I had a little boost I could dominate this server!" Well, too bad a lot of people think like this. Therefor, after blowing away all that dinero, you will feel an urge to spend more because you are losing your position as a top player. And as this carries on and on, hundreds and thousands of hours of speedups are bought while the developers laugh and bathe in champagne.

I hope this makes sense.. its a business, and they're doing quite a fine job.


You are making total sense. That's why so many of us are just here for the ride and will stay until we get absolutely bored of the lack of balance in the game, another comes along that steals the best ideas from this one and combines them with a much more balanced gameplay, or something truly genius comes out (by the way, Clash just celebrated its 5th anniversary. In terms of mobile games that's like Metuselah. However, in the meantime, I am much more interested in doing a cursory half hour check on things and reading the chat for my Kingdom and House than in actually "playing.". Just look at the number of subscribers for this forum, it barely changes despite announcing it on Facebook (maybe some of the updates too, can't remember). Part of the reason for that is that a lot of people simply can't be bothered officially subscribing to comment, they read and go away. Basically, the same thing a lot of us are doing with the game now. Why pay for anything when I can look around, check the chat, maybe gather a few resources, wait/wait/wait for whatever building or troops or healing, and then go play something else where the system is the same but with better checks in place.
:twisted: Krakatoa :twisted:

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Apollyon
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Re: Fix the massive imbalance between ftp and p2w

Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:21 am

Whales, dolphins, freemium and free players all have their place within a F2P game. As stated, the closed box nature of the game inherently allows a small number of whales to influence the players around him a MUCH more impactful way than on other mobile games with everyone on the same server.

Looking back to MMORPGs, I feel that the experience should more closely follow those guidelines instead of typical mobile game guidelines. Certain packages for sale with minor bonuses, say like a mount with +10% movement speed, ruby shoes that lower city recall skill cooldown time, etc. Customization of characters, visuals, etc.

If there are going to be buyable hero cards and gold units etc - then that can be worked around. Just not in micro-worlds like this, where there are a tiny amount of actual active players. In micro-worlds, one man really can become god if he is surrounded by the right circumstances. This becomes much harder when exposed to a huge number of other players and other payers, who can act to keep them in check to a point. They still get all the advantages they are paying for, however the opportunity for them to use it to influence the chain of events that are the game is lessened and they are forced to work as a part of the game, not single overlord of it.

A player who pays should be able to get to endgame faster than a free player, provided they invest the same amount of time into the game - but it shouldnt be by an overwhelming amount. And they shouldn't be able to purchase things that give them an instant and overwhelming advantage in PvP - ie: Heroes should be balanced, and a max of 6 heros per battle should be enforced. I have nothing against premium heroes at all - however they shouldn't be able to win the battle by themselves or simply by sheer numbers cause the many "bonuses" to be enforced against the free player with only the free heroes. They should provide variety and synergy, and therefore providing for more possible powerful combos that the player can put together - for example elena with avalon horsemen+humanoid buffs = synergy! great! but jacque who can single handedly defeat entire armies.... not so great :(

Without a great community of free and freemium players, there will be left only a small number of whales competing against dolphins. eventually the dolphins will say what the point and leave. Then whales will leave because they have nobody left to beat.

How is this a good scenario for anyone?

A great start would be

1. Increase the size of the world by 10.
2. Put the entire Pbase into 1 server.
3. Remove Migration
4. Limit the amount of territory that any 1 kingdom can have at any one time (this would require fine tuning, due to multiple houses, but there needs to be a fair amount of unowned land)
5. Distribute the players evenly by power to the new kingdoms on this server. All new players are randomly distributed to a faction.
6. Add cities inside the "safe zone" buffer of the capitals.
7. Remove the bogus "win more" hero stat mechanic.
8. Make world encounters respawn in neutral territory
9. Make a mechanic as suggested in another thread to cap raid loot based on castle lvl to prevent farming of alts on a grand scale, which vastly imbalances the game and has the same effect as hacking to get free resources with no risk. This also has the good side effect of funneling people into raiding people approx their same level or above, instead of griefing weak players.
10. Allow a player to change race ONCE, for a cost of 500 linari, with the ability to "Revert" back to their original race for a cost of another 500 linari - to give them an option if they legit didnt like it.
11. add a way for houses to declare vendettas against other houses of the same color - kind of like an in-kingdom war, which would allow houses to claim cities from one another. This would add a great dynamic to the game and prevent inactive players/houses from camping in cities, and also allow players to fight for votes for king if they wanted to affect the outcome - instead of simply running away to another faction and creating super teams.


This would cause the world to work more like an MMORPG, with much more world to traverse, alot of neutral ground to have skirmishes in while fighting for the resources there.
 
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Krakatoa
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Re: Fix the massive imbalance between ftp and p2w

Thu Aug 17, 2017 5:52 am

Apollyon wrote:
Whales, dolphins, freemium and free players all have their place within a F2P game. As stated, the closed box nature of the game inherently allows a small number of whales to influence the players around him a MUCH more impactful way than on other mobile games with everyone on the same server.

Looking back to MMORPGs, I feel that the experience should more closely follow those guidelines instead of typical mobile game guidelines. Certain packages for sale with minor bonuses, say like a mount with +10% movement speed, ruby shoes that lower city recall skill cooldown time, etc. Customization of characters, visuals, etc.

If there are going to be buyable hero cards and gold units etc - then that can be worked around. Just not in micro-worlds like this, where there are a tiny amount of actual active players. In micro-worlds, one man really can become god if he is surrounded by the right circumstances. This becomes much harder when exposed to a huge number of other players and other payers, who can act to keep them in check to a point. They still get all the advantages they are paying for, however the opportunity for them to use it to influence the chain of events that are the game is lessened and they are forced to work as a part of the game, not single overlord of it.

A player who pays should be able to get to endgame faster than a free player, provided they invest the same amount of time into the game - but it shouldnt be by an overwhelming amount. And they shouldn't be able to purchase things that give them an instant and overwhelming advantage in PvP - ie: Heroes should be balanced, and a max of 6 heros per battle should be enforced. I have nothing against premium heroes at all - however they shouldn't be able to win the battle by themselves or simply by sheer numbers cause the many "bonuses" to be enforced against the free player with only the free heroes. They should provide variety and synergy, and therefore providing for more possible powerful combos that the player can put together - for example elena with avalon horsemen+humanoid buffs = synergy! great! but jacque who can single handedly defeat entire armies.... not so great :(

Without a great community of free and freemium players, there will be left only a small number of whales competing against dolphins. eventually the dolphins will say what the point and leave. Then whales will leave because they have nobody left to beat.

How is this a good scenario for anyone?

A great start would be

1. Increase the size of the world by 10.
2. Put the entire Pbase into 1 server.
3. Remove Migration
4. Limit the amount of territory that any 1 kingdom can have at any one time (this would require fine tuning, due to multiple houses, but there needs to be a fair amount of unowned land)
5. Distribute the players evenly by power to the new kingdoms on this server. All new players are randomly distributed to a faction.
6. Add cities inside the "safe zone" buffer of the capitals.
7. Remove the bogus "win more" hero stat mechanic.
8. Make world encounters respawn in neutral territory
9. Make a mechanic as suggested in another thread to cap raid loot based on castle lvl to prevent farming of alts on a grand scale, which vastly imbalances the game and has the same effect as hacking to get free resources with no risk. This also has the good side effect of funneling people into raiding people approx their same level or above, instead of griefing weak players.
10. Allow a player to change race ONCE, for a cost of 500 linari, with the ability to "Revert" back to their original race for a cost of another 500 linari - to give them an option if they legit didnt like it.
11. add a way for houses to declare vendettas against other houses of the same color - kind of like an in-kingdom war, which would allow houses to claim cities from one another. This would add a great dynamic to the game and prevent inactive players/houses from camping in cities, and also allow players to fight for votes for king if they wanted to affect the outcome - instead of simply running away to another faction and creating super teams.


This would cause the world to work more like an MMORPG, with much more world to traverse, alot of neutral ground to have skirmishes in while fighting for the resources there.


Amen!!!!!
:twisted: Krakatoa :twisted:

CURRENTLY:
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Krakatoa

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