tunguitvn
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Re: Catapult Sniped by Wall Units

Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:54 am

Don't use Mechs, then no risk :)
 
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Re: Catapult Sniped by Wall Units

Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:42 am

full line of swordsman and archers and they start kill katapult
Image
 
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Dazed
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Re: Catapult Sniped by Wall Units

Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:50 am

Thankyou for the screen shot NBSerg. This is exactly what this thread is all about. So should this continue to be a 'thing'? or should some changes be made ?

I believe this adds a silly RNG element to a strategy based game, if there is available targets infront of the cata then they should be the targets not the expensive kit at the back. Its punishes you for using units that should be integral to the siege..
Work like you don't need the money, love like you've never been hurt and dance like no one is watching.
 
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Shu
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Re: Catapult Sniped by Wall Units

Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:10 am

To those people who are investing into siege. I think they should change it since they die permanently anyway. But just so you know a lot of people will be complaining about Lich Spiders consistent spawning of lings, finally a use for them since they don't do much on walls right now.

If it's not changed, high level sieges will not be efficient with the catapults. It will be the same old Jacques exploit.
 
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Fawksito
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Re: Catapult Sniped by Wall Units

Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:20 am

put a heavy troop on front like Cavalry , they will aim for the horses not the catapult.

Works the same with spiders :( they kill the spiders not the catapults :(
BOOM
 
Blueynoes
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Re: Catapult Sniped by Wall Units

Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:03 pm

Fawksito wrote:
put a heavy troop on front like Cavalry , they will aim for the horses not the catapult.

Works the same with spiders :( they kill the spiders not the catapults :(


Nah, still happens with horses in frontline. It doesn't happen with lich because the scorpions form a perfect grid fill. Humans are a different story. 4 melee frontline leaves 1 gap. 1 horse fixes the gap, but the horse charge messes up the line sometimes causing units to insta-target the back line.
What fixes it for me is putting a catapult directly behind the middle of a unit.

Here's my tests. S=Swordsmen, H=horse, A=Archer, x=nothing, C=catapult

Letters displayed in bold will endanger your catapult sometimes if the outer tile of a catapult overlaps with one of them.

SSSSHHHHH
SSSSHHHHH
AAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAA
xxCC
Catapult will get hit right off the bat if horses charge, depending on the enemy unit composition.


SSSSHHHHH
SSSSHHHHH
AAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAA
CCxx
Catapult will generally not get hit, but if your swordsmen start incurring losses, or a few of the archers fall, a retarget takes place and catapult will take damage despite still having a frontline (maybe 1% of the raids, it tends to survive regardless as this is late in the raid

SSSSHHHHH
SSSSHHHHH
AAAAAAAA
AAAAAAAA
xCCx.
Catapult will never get hit, but this wastes more space



For me, adding swordsmen to a lineup together with horses causes a lot of issues. The charges creates an invisible gap that the wall units use as an oppurtunity to attack either your catapults or archers.
This issue is still present if you use 4x swordsmen because there's always 1 tile that has a gap, but as long as no catapult is in - OR NEXT - to that gap, you're fine.
Essentially, if you want to 100% ensure that a siege weapon does not get hit, it should not be in a gap, next to a gap, or next to the edge of one of your units; it should always be in the middle of one of your units. I'm aware this severely limits placement and yes it sucks. Screenshot posted above is a great example of incorrect placement that will work MOST of the time, but because the catapult is on the edge of a unit rather than in the middle of it, it will sometimes get targeted.

I might just be totally wrong on this, but that's my experience as human anyway. Haven't lost a catapult in 3 months but used to lose them constantly due to what appeared to be random targeting. Fixed it when i tightened up my formation.
 
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Dazed
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Re: Catapult Sniped by Wall Units

Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:13 am

wow thankyou for that detailed information Blueynoes. So perhaps there is a way of 'protecting' them but to sacrifice ur formation seems excessive. Im stil of the opinion that perhaps a tweak to the wall units targeting system should be the way to go forward. This as it stands just punishes the attacker for using siege units in a siege .... alot of the examples brought forward incur the cost of losing catapults in a successful raid ...
Work like you don't need the money, love like you've never been hurt and dance like no one is watching.
 
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Shu
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Re: Catapult Sniped by Wall Units

Wed Nov 01, 2017 11:34 am

Blueynoes wrote:
Nah, still happens with horses in frontline. It doesn't happen with lich because the scorpions form a perfect grid fill. Humans are a different story. 4 melee frontline leaves 1 gap. 1 horse fixes the gap, but the horse charge messes up the line sometimes causing units to insta-target the back line.

Scorpion units leave 1 gap as well but you can place 5 troops instead of 4 frontlines as Humans.
 
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Zinek
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Re: Catapult Sniped by Wall Units

Wed Nov 01, 2017 2:19 pm

Dazed wrote:
wow thankyou for that detailed information Blueynoes. So perhaps there is a way of 'protecting' them but to sacrifice ur formation seems excessive. Im stil of the opinion that perhaps a tweak to the wall units targeting system should be the way to go forward. This as it stands just punishes the attacker for using siege units in a siege .... alot of the examples brought forward incur the cost of losing catapults in a successful raid ...


You can get by without sieges using gan and jacques.
My player guide for The Art of Conquest. If you have any questions feel free to ask them. You can find me here or on this forum or on the offical AoC discord just @Zinek

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=13293
 
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Hiems
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Re: Catapult Sniped by Wall Units

Wed Nov 01, 2017 3:15 pm

It's not caused by gaps, it's caused by formation and how the AI pattern will target (which we don't know yet). The reason I know it is because I siege a lot (a lot) and after 1 lvl more on some units using the same formation as before, the catapults will get sniped. In general, a full frontline of swordsman will reduce the risks, heroes all stacked up on the left side or right side too but then there's more chances of your heroes getting sniped first, which isn't bad unless you're against dwarves, because one of the wall patterns is that the wall units will change target when the heroes are around 10% HP to the next unit, but with dwarves they 1 shot most heroes so it doesn't work at all. Putting heroes on the second line behind swords or on the far back is more optimal than stacking them up if you're against dwarves and can kill the ground fast without them dying.

There are 2 humans formations so far that I found that will never get sniped, even with 1 lvl more on some troops but the others as pointed out by Blueynoes you will still have a chance.

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