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shyke
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Re: Jacques and overall hero balance in duels

Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:54 pm

I really hope jacques gets disabled and the other heroes come back into the game soon then atleast we can explore and test around instead of seeing jacques every single time. Literally every time i see a jacques get fielded against me i get so tilted because at best case its 4-6 hours heal time if he hits firestorm and at worst cast its 16 hours because he wiped my army. I only ever really lose to jacques and supers but I honestly don't mind getting a super dropped on my face at all its one of the more interesting things that can happen and its not always an auto win. But i swear if jacques isn't changed and soon it's going to be so toxic for the early/mid game people will quit over it, i've already seen people quit over getting wiped by jacques over and over again plus people are now figuring out mummies raising silver ravagers and fielding just heros + jacques and throw away units can do serious damage to gold garrisons just because jacques firestorm kills anything that is in its path causing the player on the receiving end to get extremely frustrated because its 100% free units + 1 hero basically killing half a gold garrison its completely stupid and needs to be changed since cleo did essentially the same thing before she was nerfed but when jacques does it somehow it's 100% okay which makes zero sense.
 
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Zinek
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Re: Jacques and overall hero balance in duels

Wed Sep 20, 2017 9:29 pm

Sparkles wrote:
Is this something that all servers will be getting though? My initial thoughts were that they were giving the hero's to the PTR so that they can be tested (the rakan hero for obvious reasons and Jacques because they be redesigning him rather than just straight up nerfing the numbers).

I'll be disappointed if my $10 hero purchase was wasted on a hero that is readily available at a low purchase rate.


They talked about other ways to getting a hero in the past that wasn't strictly buying it outright. You get a feee box every 2 days. 7 chances at a free jacques. This is coming to live mark my words. And it will probably rotate heroes bi weekly so jacques first then I dunno tiadrin or Cleo, rose maybe ? Doesn't matter point is this will literally kill the game for two weeks as anyone who doesn't pay 60$ will instantly die to anyone who does. The value of this box is insane.
My player guide for The Art of Conquest. If you have any questions feel free to ask them. You can find me here or on this forum or on the offical AoC discord just @Zinek

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=13293
 
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Kryton13
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Re: Jacques and overall hero balance in duels

Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:10 pm

They are offering the box for free - this is literally the best addition to the game for free to play players as they are adding the most powerful heroes for free. And people still complain....it actually amazes me.
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shyke
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Re: Jacques and overall hero balance in duels

Wed Sep 20, 2017 10:30 pm

Kryton13 wrote:
They are offering the box for free - this is literally the best addition to the game for free to play players as they are adding the most powerful heroes for free. And people still complain....it actually amazes me.


I like free heroes I agree its amazing, JUST not for jacques because he is in my opinion the most toxic thing in this game for actually duelling people tiadrin is a very close second due to how her aura is continual damage. If they removed/changed jacques and tiadrin aura I would be so happy, I have nothing against free stuff or making hero comps more of a variety I only have issues with everyone having a hero that is completely broken and solos armies by himself and has no counter in the game.

I'm a fan of balanced heroes that you can play and counter with your own planning or army comps I'm not a fan of "hey look i lose because X is on the field no way i can win" types of situations.

PS if you think prenerf cleo was bad just remember jacques can do the exact same thing to gold garrisons using only throw away units so you can clear the hardest part of the guys garrison for essentially free (using mummies to raise ravagers then using ravagers to meet power requirements then hero stack and just use jacques to kill all the golds fielded on the ground causing you to lose nothing if at all and the persons garrison has over a day healtime). I don't think anyone would count that as "great gameplay" when there was no losses involved for the person assaulting the castle.
 
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Kryton13
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Re: Jacques and overall hero balance in duels

Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:16 am

Fair play - i respect that position. Jacques really does need a balance pass - personally i hope they dont mess with his mech support skill and just gut his damaging powers.

I just get a bit frustrated when i see the devs improving the game and making good changes and yet people still complain en mass to them, its like they can't win.
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House: 'The Autobots'
Player Name: 'Kryton13'
Race: Dwarf
 
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shyke
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Re: Jacques and overall hero balance in duels

Thu Sep 21, 2017 6:19 pm

Kryton13 wrote:
Fair play - i respect that position. Jacques really does need a balance pass - personally i hope they dont mess with his mech support skill and just gut his damaging powers.

I just get a bit frustrated when i see the devs improving the game and making good changes and yet people still complain en mass to them, its like they can't win.

Personally I'm all for the changes and the vast majority of them are great in my opinion a few of them I have doubts about but my main complaint is just Jacques and a good tiadrin both of those heroes are really anti-fun if played properly and you are facing them. Jacques is just more popular to see than Tiadrin but I have a 11$ experiment going on and without spending any extra money I've had my Tiadrin kill entire armies just by herself, if people don't see her early on the opening they basically lose their entire back line as human if they don't favor that's how much damage she does. She has a lesser effect versus lich (due to number of units on the field) but she still can do 200k+ if she lives long enough because her aura eats the spiderlings when they get spawned helping you push through. Dwarf though she can either be okay or completely useless since her aura doesn't hit mechs.

That's personally all I think is really needed is those two heroes toned down and I'm more than happy for other changes as they implement them I try to test them out before I knock them.
 
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tofuu
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Re: Jacques and overall hero balance in duels

Thu Sep 21, 2017 7:48 pm

I made an account to respond to the clear lack of patterned understanding to what role Jacque plays.

1) Yes, Jacque is high dps, low space taking hero. Therefore, it is almost a must in every army because it's too effect on a dps increase / space taken perspective
2) No, Jacque is not over-powered when it comes to late game. A simple way to understand this is to test the relative damage of a level 30, 50 might Jacque in a 20k vs 20k army battle, and then compare it to a 40k to 40k army battle, 60k to 60k and 100k to 100k, so on so forth. It is not hard to realize that Jacque's power and damage is independent from the army in which he fights in. So yes, when you link images of a level 5 silver armies fighting another level 5 silver army, a high power jacque (even if it's not level 30 might 50) is overpowered because at low level, jacque is a lot stronger than the army he fights in.

However, the way scaling works in this game is that each level the troop gain, you gain approximately 30 percent damage and 30 percent hp, based off the power of previous level. Therefore, it's literally an exponential growth of power for troops. Whereas, hero power is gained likely much more linearly (each level increase of might gain 0.5% damage, each level of double gun gains a flat amount of damage multiplied by might multiplier - overall very linear and growth is limited and slow).

Therefore, when you have a level 30, 50 might jacque in a level 7 army, he's OP, in a level 10 army, he's not so OP anymore and die very quickly to fully buffed level 10 gold archers or knight. At late game when troops are level 12 or 13, jacque isn't nearly as good.

On the contrary, take a hero like Avalon for example, He buffs all humanoid hp by a flat percentage multiplied by might, and then buff hp and damage of archer by a flat percentage multiplied by might. At level 7 armies, avalon is pretty bad because a 2000 hp, 5k damage archer only gains a portion (for the sake of argument say it adds 30 percent damage and 50 percent hp total), thus gains 1000 hp, 1500 damage for each archer

Take this same scenario to level 10 archer, where they have 6k hp and 12k damage, you gain 3k hp and 3600 damage per archer. Hp and Damage of individual unit added together is the effective damage and effective hp of the army. Therefore, Avalon has a lot less influence for a small weak army than a big strong army.

Jacque on the other hand, is a flat contributor. So, Yes Jacque is OP early, but weak late. and Avalon when compared to Jacque, is infinitely better late.

Think about the entire game mechanism as a patterned and interconnected behavior, not from the perspective of a single point in time and you can understand this game a lot better.

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shyke
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Re: Jacques and overall hero balance in duels

Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:34 pm

Except that generally with aura buffed heroes they are extremely squishy and die almost instantly which means you can very very very easily snipe them with summons which in turn turns off their auras negating the hero completely. I'm not saying Jacques isn't balanced late game he probably is but for the first 2+ months of a server he is brokenly overpowered and negates all gold/silver garrisons on the field and single handedly can solo over half an army with just hero drops he becomes extremely toxic to the game and can make people just full out quit which harms the server in the long term. If there is a hero that completely negates the strategy/tactical portions of the game for months that is incredibly unhealthy for the game. The answer should not be under any circumstances be "wait till you are castle 30+ then he's balanced" that is probably the worst reason for him being "okay".

As I said before every hero should have a counter at every given point of time if there is no counter or if its counter is itself that's a problem. Every other hero minus virion/bane/rose(too long of range)/gafgar is extremely squishy and die almost immediately to sword summons and virion if stunned flops over also. Sure there are different strengths of heroes but one shouldn't be as dominant as jacques is till castle 30 that's a very very unhealthy situation for servers. Heroes should add flavor and different playstyles/synergies not "oh hey I'll just destroy entire gold garrisons/silver and gold armies with bronze/sac units while i only lose energy and maybe an hour of heal time to get 600+ honor while the other guy who fielded his entire top tier field gets over 12 hours of healing just because my jacques cut into his army and slaughtered his golds for essentially free".
 
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Aluminara
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Re: Jacques and overall hero balance in duels

Thu Sep 21, 2017 9:48 pm

shyke wrote:
The answer should not be under any circumstances be "wait till you are castle 30+ then he's balanced" that is probably the worst reason for him being "okay".


+1, as most people have left the server by then
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tofuu
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Re: Jacques and overall hero balance in duels

Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:14 pm

It's actually very hard to snipe avalon or elena because they move with troops. By the time you summon shit, i would have killed half your troops. Your first skill is always Vega Alt and sometimes second may not be summon. If you summon first, you already lost the battle.

Jacque is strong early game, but all 3 energy hero are strong, even bane if you use him correctly.
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