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Freezee
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The ammo problem

Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:28 am

Ok so as far as I have heard dwarves seem to be the most underpowered race in the game thus far. They have their strongest unit die permanently, don't do great in pvp, and use ammo. They become almost useless once they are out of ammo, especially compared to human archers that have infinite arrows.

So the question I have is this, is there a fix? You think there is a way to change the ammo mechanic to make it not be a huge hinderence while also still keeping it balanced?

And as a side question, what are your thoughts on dwarves? Are they the weakest? Under appreciated? I have ran human on my main server but Have a very early dwarf server and am actually really enjoying myself in comparison to the humans. Can't decide if I want to change servers to a new one and have a new main or change races on my current main so I would appreciate opinions.
 
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Zinek
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Re: The ammo problem

Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:43 pm

I love playing dwarf their unit design and style is so much fun for player vs environment (npc) combat. Tanks are beautiful and I love them and all their buggy glory. But my annoyance with them is the ammo system as you said. Once ammo is consumed they no longer use their mini guns or flamethrowers. Why? Ammo says it makes unit shoot 65% slower not stop shooting. Yes the main cannon still shoots but why have the side guns then? Just remove them and up the main gun attack speed and boom fixed the unit.

The other main issue with dwarf is less with dwarf and more with lich. Silver scorpions are just straight up overpowered. Their mechinacial melting trait is just to strong. And just kills tanks and mechsuits instantly. Which leaves you with engineers for a frontline but they too get eaten alive because they are small units and take extra damage from scorpions and poison damage from spiders so gg rip dwarf.

And even worse the next patch dwarf is useless. The one thing they did well was breaking walls. But with the change to grims human catapults will do just as much as dwarf cannons. Which means humans will be better at breaking walls due to mythril being a lot rarer than blood diamond. Humans will just dump diamonds into catapults and just throw them at everything and if they die who cares most players sit in 4000 blood diamonds anyway unless they are dwarf and pump out tanks because tanks die all the time to any scorpion or archer.

If we added ammo system to archers which would make sense (arrows harder to carry than bullets I mean really. ) but that would kill humans so hard they would be as bad as dwarf. So I say we just need to fix lich. The buff to gazul is a great start by fixing the bad parts of lich but we need to fix the good parts too. I meean spider scorpion has been the meta since. Forever and will remain so until some major changes happen. That combo is just to fool proof. Tanky frontline units 50% damage reduction against spells and magic attacks. Are large units and counter mechs. They have no weakness. And then spider spawn little minions which our unit prioritize over the scorpions and spiders themselves. So they spawn FREE units as they do dot damage. It's so strong. If you can't break the scorpion line in the first 20 seconds of a fight you dead. Period.

How dwarf wins pvp is by luck. If you have a frontline survive for 20 seconds and your rifles get enough crits to kill the scorpion line you might win. Other than that you get slaughtered. Dwarf just needs more units available to them to make use of their kit I think. Like the rebals would be ideal as a producible unit. They have high sustained Damage. Capable of killing scorpion frontline but those units are not producible so are unreliable to use. Ontop of that in the late game those rebals have no upgrades via academy and fall behind by 20% hp damage etc.
My player guide for The Art of Conquest. If you have any questions feel free to ask them. You can find me here or on this forum or on the offical AoC discord just @Zinek

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Freezee
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Re: The ammo problem

Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:14 pm

I agree with much of what you said. These are all the issues I have seen th Ouch the last month of play and my only real hesitation to switch from human to dwarf. Lich does need some fixing for sure. Having a setup that every lich uses for every situation is just obviously broken. I have heard from some that late game mechs scale so well in hp that the corrosive damage doesn't effect it near as much as you would expect it to.

What rebel unit are you talking about? I'm not sure I have seen that one at all.
 
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Zinek
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Re: The ammo problem

Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:30 am

The guys with mini guns
My player guide for The Art of Conquest. If you have any questions feel free to ask them. You can find me here or on this forum or on the offical AoC discord just @Zinek

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=13293
 
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Freezee
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Re: The ammo problem

Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:03 am

Zinek wrote:
The guys with mini guns


They are only avaliable in th shop right? What is their ability or skills or whatever?
 
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Re: The ammo problem

Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:00 pm

Shop and you can get them from the elite merc camp very rarely. They have high single target damage with very small area of affect damage if I recall correctly. With really high attack speed. They also have an ability that boost attack speed for ten seconds which you can use when out of ammo to get you almost all your attack speed back or use it when full for high burst damage.
My player guide for The Art of Conquest. If you have any questions feel free to ask them. You can find me here or on this forum or on the offical AoC discord just @Zinek

viewtopic.php?f=39&t=13293
 
Hoffman72510
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Re: The ammo problem

Fri Aug 04, 2017 5:06 pm

I am personally a huge fan of dwarves and can agree with a lot of what is said here but I can also disagree on many levels.

First off ammo is what keeps dwarf units in check, if snipers had unlimited ammo then ANY front line would melt faster than they already do. Just take a moment to watch your next battle and look at all the crits you see popping up over the now dead bodies of your enemies.

Now against Lich this breaks down into a luck category much like humans with Virion and morale. Some well placed crits can quickly melt the frontline that opens up a pathway to those retardedly OP spiders in the back. Also keep in mind that dwarves have it MUCH easier against spiders compared to humans, the splash damage done to them is just sickening.

So a suggestion I have that may be shot down by any and all f2p players...get Jacques. Not only is he insanely OP but between his ammo boosts and Grimms my ammo lasts MUCH MUCH longer. I do have to agree about the silver/gold tank ammo issue however, the gatling and flamethrower is what makes them different than any other basic siege weapon and if ammo does effect it then it should still work at a reduced rate.

So basically to summarize I feel dwarf isn't as bad as so many people make them out to be. They have their strengths, they are fun, they are strong early game and great against boss fights, but they have their weaknesses too. My advice is just to play what you enjoy because it's only a matter of time before the power cycle rotates and Lich gets the nerf they deserve, then whoever is on top will follow, again and again and again.


P.S if I really had to complain it would be gold miners in the same research category as rockets and snipers. Techs are actually pretty good but when it comes down to what to research, snipes and rockets will win every single time.
 
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Julianus
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Re: The ammo problem

Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:23 pm

This are the guys you are talking about? Got them on my main server and they are pretty good

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Freezee
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Re: The ammo problem

Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:58 pm

Hoffman72510 wrote:
I am personally a huge fan of dwarves and can agree with a lot of what is said here but I can also disagree on many levels.

First off ammo is what keeps dwarf units in check, if snipers had unlimited ammo then ANY front line would melt faster than they already do. Just take a moment to watch your next battle and look at all the crits you see popping up over the now dead bodies of your enemies.

Now against Lich this breaks down into a luck category much like humans with Virion and morale. Some well placed crits can quickly melt the frontline that opens up a pathway to those retardedly OP spiders in the back. Also keep in mind that dwarves have it MUCH easier against spiders compared to humans, the splash damage done to them is just sickening.

So a suggestion I have that may be shot down by any and all f2p players...get Jacques. Not only is he insanely OP but between his ammo boosts and Grimms my ammo lasts MUCH MUCH longer. I do have to agree about the silver/gold tank ammo issue however, the gatling and flamethrower is what makes them different than any other basic siege weapon and if ammo does effect it then it should still work at a reduced rate.

So basically to summarize I feel dwarf isn't as bad as so many people make them out to be. They have their strengths, they are fun, they are strong early game and great against boss fights, but they have their weaknesses too. My advice is just to play what you enjoy because it's only a matter of time before the power cycle rotates and Lich gets the nerf they deserve, then whoever is on top will follow, again and again and again.


P.S if I really had to complain it would be gold miners in the same research category as rockets and snipers. Techs are actually pretty good but when it comes down to what to research, snipes and rockets will win every single time.


Well I like what you're saying. I do think I would enjoy dwarf more than human for multiple reasons. The only reason I originally stayed human was because of bane, I love Viking lore and stuff and the idea of getting Viking was awesome, but I've gotten them since and they are so beyond underwhelming. Level 6 silver thanes were garbage compared to my level 3 silver orcs so that's kind of out the window. My main concern is still how far behind I will fall on my server switching races and the other is the new races. No one knows when they are coming out or what they will ultimately be but new is always fun so I want to be able to give them a shot and having my main troops all never be injured will potentially be costly.

And a question I had was have you seen the new gafgar abilities? You still think Jacques will be better than him after the patch? He will be giving all mechs an hp buff and have a mech heal which seems strong but I haven't looked into jacques much so I'm not sure which is stronger.
 
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Xyphonix
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Re: The ammo problem

Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:20 pm

The little guys with their mini gun problem.
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