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KemosabeTBC
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Re: Sylphi

Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:21 pm

Thramir wrote:
KemosabeTBC wrote:
I want to talk about 2 things that are contrary to popular belief. First is that physical teams are good in arena. Second is that Sylphi is good for arena.

I will not give any argument this time, they say a picture is worth a thousand words, a video should be more, I'll leave you this: https://youtu.be/e7i8OzetFyo

PS: All my heroes are fully equipped/fully enchanted (taurus and tholin have 4 items since they need lvl 100 for the 5th) and have full academy skills

I don't understand. You're saying that contrary to popular belief, Sylphi isn't good for arena, but she won that battle by her self.

No, what I said is contrary to popular belief. And I said that she is good for arena.
 
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KemosabeTBC
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Re: Sylphi

Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:53 pm

Zi0iP wrote:
KemosabeTBC wrote:
I will not give any argument this time, they say a picture is worth a thousand words, a video should be more, I'll leave you this: https://youtu.be/e7i8OzetFyo


What should this video prove?
1) the attacker has no idea about curves and synergy;
2) Leah is bad in this meta;
3) Every hero is great vs teams he/she hard counters (Sylphi, in this case).

I hope I didn't miss your point...

EDIT: 2.5) Tanya is not so good aswell;

Sigh.... For real? You are completely wrong about your points. And I think you are being presumptuous about your knowledge. First, as you can see from the video I am #1 in the epic arena, also looking at the most recent matches you can see that attackers are not having much luck. Now, my server has been merged with 3 other servers already, and I have been #1 in epic arena for almost a year now, every single day. Are you saying that every single person from these servers is a moron that has no idea about curves and synergy? Isn't that a bit presumptuous. Let's be serious, his team is perfectly fine. Don't forget that we have not reached level 100 yet, at this point most of the top players have focused on 15-25 heroes at most, no matter what you do you will not be able to have 3 perfect teams to counter everything. Hell, you will never be able to, but let's move on...

You completely missed the point. First you say that Sylphi has a late curve and Leah is bad. Yet, my team kills all of their heroes in the very early game, including the allmighty Zem (with nothing but AOE I might add), and Sylphi (a DPS mage) is left alone VS 4 attackers, and not only she kills all of them she also survives 4 ultimates, including 2 Taurus (another allmighty hero) ultimates!

You think this team hard counters Leah? Lmao... It's more like the other way around, although he was very lucky in this case my point was just to show how ridiculous sylphi can get if she is lucky. I have several fights with the exact same teams facing each other, and the Leah team won 90% of the time, in some of them with all my 5 heroes alive!.

But I can understand how people would think Leah is bad, but Tanya? Holy hell... Tanya is very, very good. Before I finish my argument let me show you two more videos, you can see how badly Tanya performs there:

1 - This one is against the same team but this time with a different result... I have more of those, and some with even better results for my team
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yYfiL3xanCc

2 - This one at first glance seems like a much harder match up, my same team against Zem, Ezio (awakened, 7 stars), Arachna and Cara. Now Ezio he is a true counter to this team! Not arachna or sylph, lol. Speaking about Arachna, you can see how magnificent she is versus Leah and Tanya here (not!). Ironically Leah and Tanya survive and Leah is the one that kills Ezio :)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PR0c8LqgOqQ

Now, for someone who claims to know so much about "curves" and "synergy", I think you fail to realize why Leah is good in some matches. Clearly there are much better teams for her to shine, and she does awesome damage when facing them, that is not the case here, BUT, you cannot measure how valuable a hero is based on the total damage done. This is where synergy comes in. In most of the matches where I face teams like this (even when they have taurus) I use her solely to help tanya get rid of serafine and cara before they can do any real harm, usually they both go down within 15 seconds. If leah is dead after that, it does not matter at all, she has served her purpose, which was to create a numerical advantage.

And to conclude, my original point was simply this: In the first fight Sylphi, alone VS 4 attackers Is able to defeat all of them, after they throw several ultimates at her, and she ends the fight with full HP. Also she never reached "late game" in this fight, as there was no late game, all their team mates died early. If you cannot see this then I dunno what else to say.
 
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Re: Sylphi

Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:06 pm

Ivanrgs wrote:
Zi0iP, you keep arguing about Syplhi is not that good but she is.
I don't know how many people know about curves and synergy (I personally have no clue what curves are, except those in the middle of Chronas card), but situation is simple: she is good enough to put into team and be in good advantage against casual player who are mostly presented in Soul Hunters.

I even agree that at current moment (pre awake, O level) she is not shining in arena even at 5*, but in combination with her enormous imba in HoL she makes non-owners to feel in real disadvantage.

Also I don't know how far are you in game, but sounds like very far owning lots of maxed heroes and able to choose from this variety to create right team. At my server as I can judge nobody except top5 can make 3 good teams for epic arena. So person who invest in Lingling or bloodspear for raids weaker in epic. But now we are getting sylphi who is good in arena and op In HoL, raids... that's what makes her too good even before O2

I started playing in late October. At that moment among paid heroes there was only Malrath who seemed a bit stronger and only for arena purpose. I have not heard lots of complaints.
Since that we got lingling, sylphi, goram, mirielle (ok this one not so good). Now chrona and immediately desmond (may be one or both will be op).
Personally I lost interest to experiment with heroes as all must-have heroes coming from wallet.

Maybe if I were 100 and had 20 heroes awakened I would not care and will have fun from learning how to counter these new heroes. But at time when there is still competition for being in top3 on server, it's just discouraging.


I'm pretty far in the game, to the point that I have faced every hero(but Lars) many times and I can use what hero I would.

Now that is the point: do you want a game balanced for people who don't know the game or do you want to balance it for hardcore players?
Do you want traffic laws to be written for people who know how to drive or to the hit-and-run drivers?

In this case, there is just a basic MOBA tactic/logic to apply to counter Sylphi, that is explained in the Tier List (Power Curve notes box).

In HoL Sylphi needs a serious balance; in Arena she's hard countered by every early and early-mid dps who's combo or burst oriented.
Trying to counter Sylphi with mid or mid-late heroes is like expecting to go out flames by using one drop at time. Sylphi needs the whole waterfall, like Ezio, Zem, Avior, Vernos, Malrath, Arcturus(aw)...

I'm in a server where only few people have to chose "Epic Arena" or "HoL" top. Since the end of may(when I began to play) I met many players with high game and tactic knowledge.
In my server there are loads of VIP 14+...but there are two players who decided to spend low amounts of cash and just learn tactic. The result? They have kept being into top 10 Arena/Epic Arena spending way less than others who throw money on heroes/equipment and keep losing using the "OP heroes".

PvP part of the game is not about RNG, OP heroes, etc...it's about tactic. The only hero who could nullify his hard-counters at the release was Zem: paired to another frontline(e.g. Zem + Elric) he has no chance to be bursted in the very early and he could win games 2vs5 at similar fusion, equipments and enchantments.
Taurus(and O+1 Kaneq) made it "easy" to counter Zem-like heroes...Sylphi is one of them!


KemosabeTBC wrote:
Let's be serious, his team is perfectly fine.


If you want to think being the best, I'm totally fine with that, but don't say something that's clearly absurd.
Tanya + Dokras; Arcturus + Taurus. Only Taurus and Xanos synergize in that team!
Sylphi + Serafine + Cara...3 different power curves with 3 different targets...oh yeah, the medallion on Serafine is really important when you face single targets!

For the last part in bold:
in similar cases, aw-Dokras could melt your heroes way better and faster than Sylphi. It's not hard to see aw-Dokras to win fights 1 vs 4 or 5...in fact, there were many people complaining about him being OP...then they noticed that early-teams destroy aw-Dokras.
This game is tactic. If you say "I want to win with the heroes I like vs every other hero, so nerf the ones I can't beat", I'm fine until it's PvE; when you're talking about PvP, that's now how a "MOBA" works.

KemosabeTBC wrote:
Also she never reached "late game" in this fight, as there was no late game, all their team mates died early. If you cannot see this then I dunno what else to say.


I lolled hard here...that shows your game knowledge.
Sylphi hard counters every low/non-burst damage. Heroes like these just make Sylphi stronger and help her reaching Late-fight much faster("Late" is usually around 60s; if she gets fed, she can reach it even at 30s): Leah, Tanya, Driller, Tholin(in the wrong team), Taurus(in a "non-combo" team), Ariel, Jasmine, Kong, Lars, etc.

I explain that with a League of Legends parallelism(I haven't played LoL for 2 years, but I was a "team coach" and I used to teach even the tactics I explained for free in the Tier List): Nasus was(is?) a late game character; when he faced someone like Yorick, he reached "late-game" much faster thanks to Yorick's ghouls; Vayne was a late-game character, but feeding her made her OP even in early-game.


Anyway, I have put into the Tier List every needed info to counter almost every hero in the game(here tactic is much easier, being a mobile game).
I wish people looking at this thread go consult and test it.
 
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KemosabeTBC
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Re: Sylphi

Sun Feb 19, 2017 6:52 pm

Zi0iP wrote:
I'm pretty far in the game, to the point that I have faced every hero(but Lars) many times and I can use what hero I would.

Afaik you just reached level 100 a few weeks before me. I'm about to hit it in 3 days,

KemosabeTBC wrote:
Let's be serious, his team is perfectly fine.


If you want to think being the best, I'm totally fine with that, but don't say something that's clearly absurd.
Tanya + Dokras; Arcturus + Taurus. Only Taurus and Xanos synergize in that team!
Sylphi + Serafine + Cara...3 different power curves with 3 different targets...oh yeah, the medallion on Serafine is really important when you face single targets!

You're taking what I said out of context. It is perfectly fine, given the fact that we have only focused on 15-25 heroes so far. There's only so much you can do for 3 teams with that amount of heroes, also he was experimenting teams in the several attacks he did, that first team he was trying stuff to counter some heroes individually. Of course the team is not perfect, but it's an OK team at this point in the game (pre lvl 100). He was not having much success vs my first team so was trying different things, you shouldn't take that team too seriously. It's also interesting that I never thought my team with Ezio/Arachna would perform so well, I never meant to use those 5 specific heroes together, it comes from a time when I had no more heroes upgraded and that was what I came up with, it continued to perform well so I kinda left it there.

I also have to disagree that using heroes with different power curves is nessarily bad, it isn't. You would be surprised with the amount of "unorthodox" teams that work, especially on defense, when you have an entire team with great synergy, and the same power curve, but that is a one trick poney, it is usually not hard to counter. Something mixing teams with partial synergies, instead of 5 heroes focused on the same thing, works better for defense, not always, but sometimes.

And I was not saying I'm the best, but, I interpret what you said as "you are bad and the rest of the people on the server are even worse", which of course I have the right to feel is insultuous.

For the last part in bold:
in similar cases, aw-Dokras could melt your heroes way better and faster than Sylphi. It's not hard to see aw-Dokras to win fights 1 vs 4 or 5...in fact, there were many people complaining about him being OP...then they noticed that early-teams destroy aw-Dokras.
This game is tactic. If you say "I want to win with the heroes I like vs every other hero, so nerf the ones I can't beat", I'm fine until it's PvE; when you're talking about PvP, that's now how a "MOBA" works.

Not when he is already on the battlefield with 4 heroes pounding on him. I've done it many times with the very same heroes, he melts in a few seconds.

I lolled hard here...that shows your game knowledge.

Please stop being condescending and analyse what I'm saying seriously. My game knowledge is fine thank you. But if you think that the entire playerbase of 3 server is a bunch of morons and you know better then you're being presumptuous, there is no other way around it.

Sylphi hard counters every low/non-burst damage. Heroes like these just make Sylphi stronger and help her reaching Late-fight much faster("Late" is usually around 60s; if she gets fed, she can reach it even at 30s): Leah, Tanya, Driller, Tholin(in the wrong team), Taurus(in a "non-combo" team), Ariel, Jasmine, Kong, Lars, etc.

I understand what you're saying about "late" game but it's just not what happens here. If I kill all their heroes and sylphi is alone she dies, period. As I said this team beats sylphi teams 90% of the time, I have the record to prove it, so what you're saying is not what is happening here. For me "reaching late game" is after that amound of time has passed AND she is not left on the battlefield alone in a significant numerical disadvantage. Also you seem to think that this team does not have burst, but it has, see the my 2nd fight against the same team and see how I end the fight with 4 heroes alive, I also have more against the same team with 5 heroes alive. I think you are severely underestimating Tanya.

Last but not the least, if you think Sylphi is not so good for arena, then how do you explain that one of the most potent combos in the current meta (sylphi/ariel/avior) uses her?
 
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Re: Sylphi

Sun Feb 19, 2017 7:22 pm

I'm not even going to put up an argument with you, Ziop. That you disagree with Kemo and his points, as well as denying Sylpi's prime arena performance, just shows how ignorant you are.

Every top epic arena team has Sylphi, as seen in WorstF's streams. She's guaranteed to be in used in at least 18 out of 20 top epic arena teams.

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We both know you've seen how fucking devastating Sylphi and Ariel are on Worsts videos.

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It doesn't mean jack shit that you've just reached lvl. 100. I've seen fuck tons of lvl 100's getting their ass beaten by lower levels and piss-poor team setups. I do it myself, daily. It doesn't increase your knowledge on the game, it's nothing but a dick measuring contest. Your entire viability list is running on others feedback. When you finally throw out your own opinions, they're nothing but shit on a stick.

Sit the fuck down and let daddy do the talking.
 
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KemosabeTBC
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Re: Sylphi

Sun Feb 19, 2017 7:25 pm

Zentor wrote:
I'm not even going to put up an argument with you, Ziop. That you disagree with Kemo and his points, as well as denying Sylpi's prime arena performance, just shows how ignorant you are.

I don't think Ziop is ignorant but, I think he is being condescending here.

Also interesting that the #3 team on Worst F's server uses Sylphi and ariel AND tanya. 3 of the heroes that he says are not good in the current meta. AFAIK that team is one of the hardest to beat on defense. The #1 also uses Sylphi/Ariel/Avior but not tanya I think (not on the same team but he does on a different one). Also that server has reached level 100 about 1 year before him, and that particular guy has invested thousands of $ in the game.
 
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Zi0iP
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Re: Sylphi

Sun Feb 19, 2017 7:59 pm

@Kemo
You keep reading what you want to read, not what I said...so I'm out of the discussion ;)
(just saying: I'm using Tanya and Ariel aswell, so I know when a hero underperforms compared to others. Tanya is totally situational; Ariel is made for stall + aw-Drokras teams mostly)

FYI(because I think forum should be a place to share knowledge, not to show "everyone's length") "late fight" depends on specific kit:
- depending on time(e.g Namorat, Dorkas);
- depending on taken damage(e.g Sylphi, Zem, Konrad);
- depending on summons(e.g Zem, Lucius)
- depending on stacks(e.g Tashi, Avior)
- depending on other factors like energy, opponents, etc(e.g Mirielle, Nightshade, Bloodspear, Alice)

Using mid teams makes late heroes either die or reach late much faster, based on equipments and team comp. In well composed team fights, Late > Mid > Early > Late.
Anyway, the file is public and there are enough infos to understand it.



@Zentor
1) is "being used" = OP?
2) is "being versatile" = OP?
3) I have been using and facing Sylphi since the 3rd day from release. She's still in the easiest to counter team for everyone, no matter what. When you see her into the winning team, there were many heroes who did their job aswell(usually the opponent's).
4) define "ignorant". You are actually arguing with no acceptable prooves about something you don't know in deep...maybe we're using different dictionaries.

Anyway, I'm sorry if I used to be a professional coach in MOBA games, so I can easily find counter-tactics into simplified scenarios(Soul Hunters)...I won't offend you that much anymore!

PS: you know Lilith won't do anything about Sylphi. Zem had no counters, so Tauros went out. Sylphi has plenty of counters...I suggest to use your time to test and find them...it may give more results than complaining about the only balanced Sylphi's area in the game.
 
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Re: Sylphi

Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:13 pm

Since I neither use nor see many Tanyas and Ariels on my server, I can't add anything substantial to this particular discussion, I just want to point out, that "Namorat" is not part of the game (sorry, I thought the error was funny) ^^
no more money from me
 
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KemosabeTBC
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Re: Sylphi

Sun Feb 19, 2017 8:23 pm

Zi0iP wrote:
You keep reading what you want to read, not what I said...so I'm out of the discussion ;)
(just saying: I'm using Tanya and Ariel aswell, so I know when a hero underperforms compared to others. Tanya is totally situational; Ariel is made for stall + aw-Drokras teams mostly)

I'm not disagreeing that Tanya is situational, but being situational is not bad, and Tanya is very good and what she does. Also even in the fights where she apparently does not do much, the simple fact that she can distract the opponent and make him use their "big guns" on her instead of the tank can be the difference between victory or defeat. I have had matches where she died while doing virtually nothing and I still feel that she was important for the win. Still, not a hero to be used in every team, but you when see an opportunity to use her she will do the job like no other. As for Ariel, check those Ariel/sylphi/Avior teams, they are dominating, and they are not easy to beat on defense.

PS: you know Lilith won't do anything about Sylphi. Zem had no counters, so Tauros went out. Sylphi has plenty of counters...I suggest to use your time to test and find them...it may give more results than complaining about the only balanced Sylphi's area in the game.

I am defeating Sylphi just fine, and I think he is too. Still, that does not change the fact that what happened in that video was OP, no hero should be able to do that, much less a 3* DPS mage. That was the point, the fact that you can defeat her, more or less easily, doesn't change the fact that what happened there was stupid. And I reiterate, Sylphi/ariel/avior teams are not easy to defeat.

Also, since I consider the "I have been using and facing Sylphi since the 3rd day from release. She's still in the easiest to counter team for everyone, no matter what" anectodal evidence, I'd like to add some of my own: Zem is usually on the easiest team to counter in epic arena on my server. True story.
 
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Re: Sylphi

Sun Feb 19, 2017 9:52 pm

Zi0iP wrote:
@Kemo
You keep reading what you want to read, not what I said...so I'm out of the discussion ;)
(just saying: I'm using Tanya and Ariel aswell, so I know when a hero underperforms compared to others. Tanya is totally situational; Ariel is made for stall + aw-Drokras teams mostly)

FYI(because I think forum should be a place to share knowledge, not to show "everyone's length") "late fight" depends on specific kit:
- depending on time(e.g Namorat, Dorkas);
- depending on taken damage(e.g Sylphi, Zem, Konrad);
- depending on summons(e.g Zem, Lucius)
- depending on stacks(e.g Tashi, Avior)
- depending on other factors like energy, opponents, etc(e.g Mirielle, Nightshade, Bloodspear, Alice)

Using mid teams makes late heroes either die or reach late much faster, based on equipments and team comp. In well composed team fights, Late > Mid > Early > Late.
Anyway, the file is public and there are enough infos to understand it.



@Zentor
1) is "being used" = OP?
2) is "being versatile" = OP?
3) I have been using and facing Sylphi since the 3rd day from release. She's still in the easiest to counter team for everyone, no matter what. When you see her into the winning team, there were many heroes who did their job aswell(usually the opponent's).
4) define "ignorant". You are actually arguing with no acceptable prooves about something you don't know in deep...maybe we're using different dictionaries.

Anyway, I'm sorry if I used to be a professional coach in MOBA games, so I can easily find counter-tactics into simplified scenarios(Soul Hunters)...I won't offend you that much anymore!

PS: you know Lilith won't do anything about Sylphi. Zem had no counters, so Tauros went out. Sylphi has plenty of counters...I suggest to use your time to test and find them...it may give more results than complaining about the only balanced Sylphi's area in the game.



A server as old as that, having played about 1 year more than you, have about every hero in the game and most fully leveled, many equipped to the fullest, compared to you, a player who just reached lvl 100, depending on the feedback of others? You're out of your league, kid. If the top players, more skilled and have more knowledge than you, using Sylphi successfully, you've got to get off your high horse and realize you're fucking ignorant.

If you honestly, wholeheartedly believe that sylphi is easy to beat, you are more than obviously facing weak setups, under-leveled, non-academy upgraded, non-fully upgraded teams. If she was easy to beat, she wouldn't be in everyones defenses, succesfully defending. I've seen it and I've faced it - She is the strongest 3 star mage ever released in the game, easily exceeding the cancer of Zem that was spread upon his release.
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